General Discussion -  Judging other faiths.... (127 views) Subscribe   
  From:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   11/17/2004 8:48 am  
To:  ALL   (1 of 68)  
 
  919.1  
 
Can God really allow sincere, moral people of other faiths to reach heaven, or is the name of Jesus ALWAYS the password to those pearly gates? 

All people will be judged upon the moment of their death, it says so in the Bible. But will everyone be judged by the same standard? That is the question.

I once heard an evangelist talk about how people are judged based on how much they know. I really agree with that. So are Jews saved? Well, according to Paul, yes. In the 11th chapter of Romans, Paul was comparing Judaism with the Gospel of Christ. He was saying that because there is a "New Testament (or Covenant)" there is also an "Old Testament (or Covenant)." And God doesn't break any of his covenants (all God's promises are yes and amen). If God makes a covenant with the Jewish people and tells them that if they "do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly" with their God (Micah 6:8), then as long as someone is doing those three things, they are doing "all that God requires of thee" (Micah 6:8). God cannot deny salvation to those he's already promised it to. 

Paul also compared Judaism and Christianity to a tree. The roots of this tree were the Old Testament Covenant God made with his people. The Christian faith was an "engrafted vine" supported by the root and surrounded by the "branches" - the branches being today's Jews, who, although they had rejected Jesus, will still recognize him as Messiah when he returns to judge the world and set up the Millenial Kingdom. And he warned against Christians boasting that they had the way and that these "branch" Jews didn't:

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

In other words, wise up Christians, you may have more freedom from the law than the "branch Jews" but it is still the root of the tree that was originally theirs on which your whole salvation is based.

So what about other religions?

I'll start with Native American religion, pre-1492. These poor souls had no way of knowing anything about Jesus. No missionaries could have carried them the Gospel because their continent had not even been discovered by Christians. So what happened to them? Did they die and go to hell?

If you study Native American religion, you will find that quite often there were Indians who believed in the redemption of all mankind from sin by the Son of God. I believe that they were revealed these truths in dreams and visions. As Psalms 19 says, "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament showeth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, night unto night showeth knowledge. There is NO SPEECH NOR LANGUAGE where their voice is not heard." (verses 1-3)

In fact, Hinduism as we know it now was founded by a man named Krishna, who supposedly had divine powers of healing and miracles, etc., and who claimed to be an "incarnation" of the second person in a trinty of a Three-In-One God. He spoke of freedom from sin that he would offer to the world when he came again (and Hindus believe he DID come again, in the form of Jesus Christ, 500 years later), but in the meantime, encouraged meditation and sobriety, to keep away from the carnal desires of this world. He talked about being "absorbed in Brahman (their word for God the Father)" so that the "things of lust and anger" would not trouble us. Krishna single-handedly reformed the pantheistic and sacrifice, ritual-based religion of old Hinduism into a monistic vision of mankind's unity with a Three-In-One God, and talked about removing oneself from the path of sin. Kinda reminds me of how Jesus single-handedly reformed Judaism from a sacrifice, ritual-based religion into a redemptive vision of mankind's unity of a Three-In-One God, and talked about removing oneself from the path of sin.

Okay, so that settles it for Jews, Hindus, and also for those who've never heard of Jesus, but let's take it one step further.

What if you were a Muslim in 1750 and taken from your home in Africa on a slave ship by a "Christian" man who sold you to another "Christian" man, who beat you, raped you and/or your wife and children every night, who made you work very hard for no money, and poor living conditions, and then on Sundays he made you go to a tiny, hot, bug-infested "nigger church" to hear some African man who talked just like the white people, who dressed the same, and who conveniently got to live in the Master's house where he was comfortable and even LIKED... what if you had to hear him preach to you about a Jesus whom the paintings on the wall seemed to indicate was white? 

Imagine you had been a devout Muslim, and you had felt God speaking to you through the Koran (hey, God can speak through anything if people really want to hear from him!), and now they paint a picture of a white Jesus and tell you to sing songs about how he made all the difference in your world? If you reject Jesus and continue to live this awful life until you are eventually beat to death in 1770 by your "Christian" master, will God send you to hell? 

Is God merciful?

Finally, for your consideration, I have posted below a parable of Jesus Christ, found in Luke 16:19-24, where one man goes to heaven and one man goes to hell. The parable says nothing about the man going to heaven because he knew JESUS, and it says nothing about the man going to hell because he DIDN'T know Jesus. In fact, the reason that the men went their separte ways, in verse 25, is because on earth, the rich man was comforted and was selfish with his goods, and on earth, the poor man was in miserly with his poverty and yet content. When you read this, I want you to imagine a rich Christian with a big mansion, and poor Muslim beggar outside of his mansion, begging for scraps of food. As a missionary myself, I have seen that scene all to many times. But Jesus never condones selfishness, and apparently it will send you to hell, no matter which religion you are a part of. And contentment, no matter what your religion, will send you to heaven.

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou tormented.

Yours Truly,
Kevin






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Edited 11/17/2004 4:07 pm ET by Kevin X (ModernIsaiah) 
  
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  From:  afreshface   11/17/2004 9:20 am  
To:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   (2 of 68)  
 
  919.2 in reply to 919.1  
 
A very interesting post, Kevin :o)

I can see you are not your every day "garden variety" Christian! I hope your posts raise some interesting discussions. I can not reply at length right now, as I am at work on my lunch break, but I'll be back.
 
  
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  From:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   11/17/2004 12:56 pm  
To:  afreshface   (3 of 68)  
 
  919.3 in reply to 919.2  
 
It took me a while, but God helped me to stop listening to the erroneous misinterpretations of the church I grew up in and start listening to Him for myself. If you're interested in how this developed, I just posted a basic autobiography of this experience back on my forum. Its number 9 in the thread "Gnostic Christianity".
Sincerely,
Kevin 
  
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  From:  amym38     11/19/2004 11:13 pm  
To:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   (4 of 68)  
 
  919.4 in reply to 919.1  
 
are you saying a person does not need Christ to get to the Father?
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  From:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   11/20/2004 10:05 am  
To:  amym38    (5 of 68)  
 
  919.5 in reply to 919.4  
 
No, I am not. I am saying that Christ has unlimited mercy, and has ways of appealing to people who (1) have never heard of the Christian Faith, or (2) have been severely turned off from the Christian Faith by so-called Christians who have ridiculed them for believing as they do.

According to John 14:6, Jesus once told his disciples that "No man cometh unto the Father, but by me." We know that Jesus does not tell lies, so the answer to your question, straight from Jesus' mouth, is that yes, one definitely needs Christ to get to the Father.

However, it is VITALLY important to always take Scripture in context, and compare it with other Scriptures. Let's do that:
John 14:2, just four verses above the verse we just discussed, has Jesus saying that "In my Father's house are many mansions." 

The traditional interpretation is that Jesus was talking about heaven, and how in heaven believers get their own estate homes, basically. This may be the case, but that's not what this verse is talking about. If you go to the original Greek word for "mansions" used in this verse, you find that the word actually means "way-stations." (Note: Strong's Concordance and Greek Dictionary doesn't acknowledge this fact, probably because of Strong's dedication to fundamentalist Christianity, but any Greek Lexicon should bear out the fact that this word means way-stations).

So, in other words, Jesus is the only, but Jesus has set up different way-stations to appeal to different people. Obviously, for Western Culture, he offers us the Christian faith with no addendums. But what about the people in the heart of Africa in the 2nd century A.D. What about the Mongols during the time of Genghis Khan? There are literally billions of people throughout the history of the world who never had a chance to know anything about Jesus. Even today, there are people who are being given the "Christian" message, but the messengers are giving it to them in very insensitive, even mean-spirited ways. It is for these people that the Scripture verse says God keeps "mercy for thousands" (Exodus 20:6, Exodus 34:7, and Deuteronomy 5:10). Christians are under grace, not mercy. So who is the mercy for?

What are these other way-stations? I believe they are, for example, the dreams and visions given to Native Americans, that revealed the basic Gospel message to them, and which they built religions around. I believe Native American religion was just as valid as Christianity when it was followed by the people to whom it was revealed. I believe God holds us accountable to what we have been shown.

Under this interpretation, it is once again God Himself who becomes the object of our worship, not our individual religions. I believe far too much time is spent by fundamentalists in all faiths arguing over the doctrinal specifics of their faith, and not enough time trying to establish the peace of God over their lives, their families, their towns, their nations, and their world.
-Kevin
 
  
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  From:  amym38     11/20/2004 12:50 pm  
To:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   (6 of 68)  
 
  919.6 in reply to 919.5  
 
Christians are most definitely 'under mercy' as well as 'under grace.'

We are accountable for what we know, yes.

God knows those who are His already, so if someone has not 'heard' the Gospel words, it is up to Him to sort that out.  However, Christians are commanded to go into all the world, preach the Gospel, and make disciples.    

Christ is the ONLY way to the Father....and He is who He is--He is not someone or something else...or 'another way.'   He is not the 'god' of 'Native American religions,' though I have no doubt that God the Father hasn't attempted to get through to some to bring them Christ.

Those that hear are without excuse.

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  From:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   11/20/2004 1:20 pm  
To:  amym38    (7 of 68)  
 
  919.7 in reply to 919.6  
 
So I'm confused about what you are saying. You said that God the Father has attempted to get through to some Native Americans. But then you said that Christ is not the god of the Native Americans. Either you are saying (1) that absolutely 0 Native Americans have ever listened to God the Father and accepted Christ, or (2) that the Native Americans have a way to God the Father that does not involve Christ, which contradicts Scripture.

I do not believe that there is "another way" to God other than through Christ. I already answered that question.

And I also believe that those who hear are without excuse, that is, if they are being presented the right Gospel - not one with condemnation, but one with love.
-Kevin
 
  
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  From:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   11/20/2004 1:24 pm  
To:  amym38    (8 of 68)  
 
  919.8 in reply to 919.6  
 
Definition of mercy: God does not give us the punishment we deserve.
Definition of grace: God gives us the forgiveness and blessings we do not deserve.

Definition of salvation through Jesus Christ: God makes his forgiveness and grace available to us. God's forgiveness, as a function of his grace, eliminates the need for mercy, because we are already covered by his blood. He looks at us and sees the blood of the Lamb. Why would he need to have mercy on his own blood? His blood is perfect.

So no, Christians are not under mercy.
 
  
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  From:  amym38     11/20/2004 1:24 pm  
To:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   (9 of 68)  
 
  919.9 in reply to 919.7  
 
I said 'Native American religions.'
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  From:  amym38     11/20/2004 1:25 pm  
To:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   (10 of 68)  
 
  919.10 in reply to 919.8  
 
Really.      Where did you get your doctrine?

 

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  From:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   11/20/2004 1:29 pm  
To:  amym38    (11 of 68)  
 
  919.11 in reply to 919.9  
 
So you've studied Native American religions? 
  
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  From:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   11/20/2004 1:29 pm  
To:  amym38    (12 of 68)  
 
  919.12 in reply to 919.10  
 
I was raised in the Church of God, that's a Pentecostal denomination.

I believe that Wilmington, Dake, and Ryrie all differentiate between grace and mercy this way, also.
-Kevin
 
  
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  From:  amym38     11/20/2004 1:38 pm  
To:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   (13 of 68)  
 
  919.13 in reply to 919.11  
 
Not to a large degree, but one doesn't need to study it heavily to know that they are not in line with Scripture.    

to your next post:    I can't understand why anyone would believe that we don't need mercy.   weird.     but....'pentecostal' is a clue.

thanks.

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  From:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   11/20/2004 1:52 pm  
To:  amym38    (14 of 68)  
 
  919.14 in reply to 919.13  
 
I disagree, you DO have to study it in depth if you want to know if it lines up with Scripture or not. As a Christian you should be very adamant about educating yourself before you make a judgment. "Study to show yourself approved." There were hundreds of Native American tribes and even more systems of religious thought. A good introduction for you would be to read "God is Red" by Vine Deloria Jr., who is himself a Native American theologian. Its good, fun reading and you will be an expert if that is the only book you read.

Christians, especially Creationist Scientists, are very quick to quote Native American religious legends when they are advancing the claim that the Biblical accounts of creation and the flood are true. Because Native Americans describe the flood of Noah and the Garden of Eden in many of the same ways that the Bible does. Not to mention, the whole belief of some tribes in a redeemer who was the Son of God, freeing us from the deceptive power of a fallen angel. 

I'm not Pentecostal anymore, but even if I was, the idea of mercy and grace being different and them being defined the way I defined them have been explained that way by Baptist ministers and scholars for years. Ryrie and Wilmington are Baptists, I'm pretty sure. What exactly is your background in theology?
 
  
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  From:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   11/20/2004 1:55 pm  
To:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   (15 of 68)  
 
  919.15 in reply to 919.14  
 
Not to mention, one of the most important scientists to ever lend support to the Creation argument, Immanuel Velikovsky, was the first to ever suggest the idea that Native American religion and the Bible were compatible. That should be enough to convince you unless of course you are an evolutionist.
-Kevin 
  
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  From:  amym38     11/20/2004 2:05 pm  
To:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   (16 of 68)  
 
  919.16 in reply to 919.14  
 
we don't study false doctrine to show ourselves approved workmen---we study God's word.

I don't have to know every single thing about any religion to understand that they've gone astray from the One True God of all creation who sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to die for mankind's sin.     

The beauty of studying Scripture is that it makes you aware of what is true and false very quickly.    

 

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  From:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   11/20/2004 2:37 pm  
To:  amym38    (17 of 68)  
 
  919.17 in reply to 919.16  
 
I understand and agree that the study of Scripture has that effect.
But unless you can show me a Scripture that says something to the effect of "No religions will ever develop except Christianity that have Biblical creeds," then I will insist on seeing what the Bible says, seeing what other people say, and then deciding if there is a contradiction or not.

If I may offer an analogy: There is a room in your house which contains 10 everyday objects, one of them being a monitor that allows you to look into all the other rooms. Jesus gives you instructions saying "You will go to hell if you do not go into the room that has the following 10 objects." You go into the room that has the 10 objects that were mentioned to you, and you stay there. 

The next day, Jesus comes to you and says, "I am counting on you to help me rescue people from the flames of hell. Try to gather everyone else in the house into rooms with the same 10 objects so that they don't go to hell." You stand at the edge of the room and yell into the hallway "People, please come into this room so that you don't go to hell!" The people in the house answer you back and say "The same 10 objects that are in your room are also in our rooms! We want to stay where we are!" Then you began to scream "You people are going to hell! You don't know God! You are bad people." This offends them all, but you don't care. Someone like me comes along and says, look, look into your monitor and check to see if the same 10 objects that are in your room are also in the other rooms." If you look, you would see that there are three other rooms with the exact same objects in them, evenly spaced throughout the house so that everyone can reach a room with 10 objects in it in the same amount of time, no matter where they are in the house. But you say, "I don't need to check to see if every single object is in any of the other rooms. All I have to do is study the objects in my room and I automatically know that the other rooms don't match the criteria."

So you continue to scream at the rest of the house members, causing them to see you as narrow-minded and afraid to leave your room, distrustful of people different from you.

One very unfortunate side effect is that the people who are in rooms WITHOUT those 10 objects look at you and the people in the other 3 rooms and say "You guys just keep arguing about nothing. It's no big deal." And it is those ones who go to hell when Jesus returns.

So in other words, Christians who refuse to study other religions and continually badmouth Native American religion or Islam or Hinduism or something are seen by, say, Satanists, as a bunch of people arguing over nothing. And so Christians can't reach out to Satanists, and they can't form friendships with anyone other than Christians. (And in your case, Christians who AREN'T Pentecostals.)
-Kevin
 
  
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  From:  amym38     11/20/2004 2:39 pm  
To:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   (18 of 68)  
 
  919.18 in reply to 919.17  
 
And in your case, Christians who AREN'T Pentecostals

------

what's that supposed to mean?

you know, you seem to have a rather large chip on your shoulder.  anyone ever told you that?

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  From:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   11/20/2004 2:48 pm  
To:  amym38    (19 of 68)  
 
  919.19 in reply to 919.18  
 

you know, you seem to have a rather large chip on your shoulder. anyone ever told you that?

(1) Yes they have.
(2) How does this pertain to our discussion? Have you run out of things to say?
(3) You just made a jab a few posts ago about my upbringing, how am I out of line for pointing that out to you?
(4) If I do have a large chip on my shoulder, you don't know anything about me, you don't know why I do. If you want me to get personal with you and tell you how I have been hurt by conservative Christians in very personal ways, I don't mind telling you. Here's ONE, just ONE, reason that I have a chip on my shoulder: the love of my life, to whom I have been happily married for over a year, is a different race from me, and for that reason Christians who I've grown up with think I've strayed from truth because they think that is a violation from Scripture. For that reason I am determined to communicate with conservative Christians and point out all the many ways that they misinterpret Scripture, your logic being one of those ways.

I would love to continue this discussion with you, giving each other the benefit of the doubt, and operating from an academic and Scriptural standpoint. If we are going to start bringing personal things into this impersonal discussion, then I need to know ahead of time so that I have time to read your profile and find ways to accuse you of things I know nothing about. That way the conversation will be even.
-Kevin


 
  
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   From:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   11/20/2004 2:51 pm  
To:  amym38    (20 of 68)  
 
  919.20 in reply to 919.18  
 
Look, I have a tendency to get really defensive, okay? I'm sorry. Please don't take offense either to the Pentecostal comment or to my last post. I wasn't really thinking things through. One thing I need to remind myself of is that you are not "all Christians." 
  
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From:  amym38     11/21/2004 12:08 am  
To:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   (21 of 68)  
 
  919.21 in reply to 919.19  
 
I did no such thing as give you a 'jab' about your upbringing.

sorry you thought so.    

your chip has a lot to do with being able to discuss appropriately.     [and I thought you had one before you made certain comments..from post one, as a matter of fact]

you have your preconceived notions of how things are, so I'm sure that I have nothing to offer you.

have a nice life, though.

:)

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  From:  amym38     11/21/2004 12:09 am  
To:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   (22 of 68)  
 
  919.22 in reply to 919.20  
 
ok.

that's a start, I guess.

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  From:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   11/21/2004 8:21 am  
To:  amym38    (23 of 68)  
 
  919.23 in reply to 919.22  
 
Please don't interpret my philosophical difference with fundie Christianity as part of the chip on my shoulder. I would still love to know your response to the analogy of the rooms. Honestly, how do you know for certain that God does not accept Native American religion? How do you know that you aren't rejecting their experiences with God just because you are sociologically different from them, and have been taught by Christianity that there is only one true religion? Are you certain that all the things spoken to you by Christian teachers have been Biblical? What is it about my first post that is unBiblical? I quoted a lot of Scriptures and used them in context, how is my interpretation off? 
  
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  From:  amym38     11/21/2004 2:31 pm  
To:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   (24 of 68)  
 
  919.24 in reply to 919.23  
 
All a person has to do is read the Holy Scriptures as given.     To delete anything or add anything will get you false doctrine.    When a person is indwelt with the Holy Spirit, He bears witness with our spirit as to what is 'true' or 'false.'    I don't rely on what someONE tells me, other than God.    

Can you tell me the reason you are so anxious?   Why do you need to believe that God gave Native Americans a 'different way?'

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  From:  afreshface   11/21/2004 2:41 pm  
To:  amym38    (25 of 68)  
 
  919.25 in reply to 919.24  
 
Amy,

I think perhaps Kevin is "concerned" because he has compassion for ALL people and feels it would be a great tragedy and extremely disturbing to think that Native Americans were all doomed to eternal torment unless they believed in Jesus as their personal savior. Especially since many centuries worth of Native Americans lived & died before Christ was born or his gospel dispersed. 

Don't you have any feeling of sorrow or remorse for people who, through no fault of their own might be damned for eternity?

Which brings me to a question I have tried to get answered on other Christian forums: How will you enjoy heaven if people you have known and loved on Earth end up spending eternity in torment? The only answer I've received to this question is that God will wipe away all our memories of people we loved who "didn't make it". That thought alone makes me very sad. My heart ACHES and CRIES at the very thought of people spending eternity in agony and torment. I couldn't do that to someone. How come God can? How can God forgive LESS than I? How can God feel LESS compassion than I?
 
  
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  From:  amym38     11/21/2004 3:22 pm  
To:  afreshface   (26 of 68)  
 
  919.26 in reply to 919.25  
 
Well, God knows who are His---there is no need to worry.

God is just.......and longsuffering, as well.

He doesn't make mistakes.

God will do what HE will do----no need to fret that someone's not going to live with Him in eternity.     He is in control.

We should rest in Christ.

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  From:  amym38     11/21/2004 3:23 pm  
To:  afreshface   (27 of 68)  
 
  919.27 in reply to 919.25  
 
How can God forgive LESS than I? How can God feel LESS compassion than I?
 
  

----

if you knew God....you'd know how ridiculous those questions are.

sorry.    Get to the Father through Christ Jesus His Son.....and through the Holy Spirit you will come to the knowledge of Truth.

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  From:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   11/21/2004 5:38 pm  
To:  amym38    (28 of 68)  
 
  919.28 in reply to 919.27  
 
Afreshface kind of answered your question about why I'm so anxious, but he kinda left it a little open, too. He said it was because I am compassionate towards the Native Americans and can't imagine them not even having a shot at heaven. (For that matter, I am compassionate towards centuries of Africans also, who never knew about Jesus... it seems the only people who've gotten decent shots at being exposed to Christianity have been white folks... I don't want to think of God as a racist... no wonder the Religious Right is opposed to affirmative action, we don't give the n****** equal shots at heaven, why should we give them decent jobs or schooling?...)

On a serious note, I am not really all that concerned about the Native Americans. I know that I know that I know that God has made provision for them. He's a merciful God, that's what he does. I'm not worrying about having to have my memory wiped so that I am blind to the injustice of people I love being in hell, while I, a true sinner (and such were some of you...) am in heaven just because I had a decent chance to know Jesus. What I AM worried about is how we are all going to get along down on earth.

I don't know if you've spent much time getting to know folks outside the Christian Faith, Amy, maybe you've been busy listening to Bible teachers who don't really understand what they are talking about and telling yourself that you are studying the Bible as it is given (I'm not trying to be harsh, you'll either take that comment or leave it). But if you have spent any amount of time with them, you would have found out that they have much to teach us. Once, when I was a blind conservative Christian, I tended to worship folks who believed the same as I did. Like George W. Bush and a local pastor in my area. I was so sure of their salvation that I automatically assumed their enemies to be my enemies. But when I hung around a few of the "sinners" (who, by the way, were Jesus' friends, too), I found out that my local pastor was financially taking advantage of many folks in his congregation, including the man who was best man at my wedding. And I found out that George W. Bush was killing innocent Iraqis for oil, endangering American soldiers that people in my youth group were writing letters to, and making it really hard for the hard-working single mother down the street to pay her rent. I had compassion on the sinners, and I had compassion on myself. Myself, because I had been took. Because I had devoted my life to emulating a lifestyle that was hypocritical and was backed up my people who misinterpreted Scripture and tried to make it seem like only one thing mattered: whether or not you had said the "sinner's prayer". Not whether or not you were compassionate or followed the example of Jesus, but basically whether or not you were in the church "clique" or you were summed up as a "mixed up kid". 

I am anxious because I have stepped outside the box, and I have found a better freedom than I had when I was just another unquestioning member of the Christian culture. And I know what you are missing. I'm anxious that you could believe as I believe, for the simple reason that then you would feel the love I feel. I remember what it is like to go through life judging others, and feeling good about it because I was sure that I was A OK. Then I remember the humiliation when I got knocked off my high horse. Thank God I had the sense not to get back on it again.
-Kevin

 
  
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  From:  afreshface   11/21/2004 6:01 pm  
To:  amym38    (29 of 68)  
 
  919.29 in reply to 919.27  
 
With all due respect, Amy, I really feel you are side-stepping the questions.

"God will do what HE will do..........." etc. How is this supposed to comfort me, especially if what God decides to "do" is to send my beloved friend, or possibly my sister,or favorite cousin, etc. to eternal torment? You seem not to want to answer that question. What do you mean by "no need to fret that someone's not going to live with Him in eternity"? Do you believe that everyone will spend eternity with God in heaven? Or do you just not care about those who won't?

Also, "God knows who are his".... does this mean that you believe as the hardcore Calvinists that there are some who are doomed to damnation right from the start? That would be a very cold and dismal view of life (and death!).

"If you knew God, you'd know how ridiculous those questions are".... 

Those questions don't seem ridiculous to me, I ask them genuinely. What seems somewhat ridiculous is that you are unable to give me a straight answer to my question.

Why am I capable of forgiving my children any transgression, of always giving them another chance, of loving them unconditionally, but it seems, according to fundamental Christian beliefs that God is not capable of extending the same forgiveness and UNCONDITIONAL love to HIS children? 

I forgive my children and keep trying to reach them no matter what the issue; keep extending a helping hand to them regardless of whether they believe as I do, accept my help or scorn it, and in spite of regular doses of rudeness and ingratitude. They are my children, I love them UNCONDITIONALLY. I brought them into the world; the way I structured their world during their childhood and the way I taught them is directly related to the way they are turning out. I can do no less than give them infinite chances to become the adults I had envisioned them as being when they were infants. Can God do less?

Perhaps your world is more "rosy" tinted. Perhaps your children are paragons of virtue and have never given you a moment's angst. Perhaps it is acceptable to you to think of "damning" those who don't "toe the line" and mold themselves to your every specification because you never been put to that test.

My world is different. Don't get me wrong, my children have not turned out "bad", but there have been many rough spots and they have gone in different directions than I had hoped for them. However, regardless of their habits, beliefs, avocations, occupations, etc. I would NEVER ever give up loving them or give up my willingness to help them, forgive them, or bring them back to the nurturance of my home and hearth. The thought that God might "shut out" some of his children for all eternity is incomprehesible to me and does not, to my mind, indicate justness, mercy or an all-loving quality.
 
  
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  From:  afreshface   11/21/2004 6:12 pm  
To:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   (30 of 68)  
 
  919.30 in reply to 919.28  
 
Your quote: "I remember what it is like to go through life judging others, and feeling good about it because I was sure that I was A OK."
reminded me of an incident at Bible study about a year before I left the fundamental pentacostal Christian church I attended for several years. 

Somehow at Bible study we got on the subject of hell. I don't remember if there is a scriptural reference to this idea or not, but we got on the topic of being able to "look down" from heaven to see those suffering in hell, and our Bible study leader, a "good" family man whose wife was a close friend and who had three lovely children commented what a kick it would be when he is in heaven with all the saved to look down the "ha ha hole" to hell and laugh at all the idiots that were too stupid to take Jesus as their savior. I remember laughing along with everyone else that evening, but over time that comment really started to bother me A LOT. I'm pretty sure that was one of the catalysts that eventually caused me to rethink my spiritual journey. I couldn't imagine LAUGHING at the poor tortured souls who were unfortunate enough to have screwed up enough to be in hell. At that point I wasn't even thinking about some of them being loved friends or relatives. Later, my veiwpoint evolved to the stage where I couldn't envision MYSELF being able to enjoy heaven knowing loved ones from my lifetime were suffering in hell. That's when the WHOLE SYSTEM began to break down in my mind, and I started to look at God in a different way.
 
  
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  From:  amym38     11/21/2004 7:25 pm  
To:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   (31 of 68)  
 
  919.31 in reply to 919.28  
 
the injustice of people I love being in hell

--------

you don't know God at all if you think He is unjust.

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  From:  amym38     11/21/2004 7:28 pm  
To:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   (32 of 68)  
 
  919.32 in reply to 919.28  
 
And I know what you are missing.

--------

Uh, it's you who are 'missing' something.  The Truth.

You don't know me, but you think you do.   You dare come into a stranger's forum and assume anything at all about someone who was nice enough to post to you in the first place.

What you need first, is to submit to the lordship of Jesus Christ.   Learn basic biblical principles.   Learn to be holy as Christ is holy.   Let God humble you and teach you who He REALLY is....not your wishful-thinking of a picture of Him.

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  From:  amym38     11/21/2004 7:31 pm  
To:  afreshface   (33 of 68)  
 
  919.33 in reply to 919.29  
 
How is this supposed to comfort me, especially if what God decides to "do" is to send my beloved friend, or possibly my sister,or favorite cousin, etc. to eternal torment? 

--------

Do you think God has done everything He has done for your personal benefit and comfort?  

or maybe......

He has chosen to do what will glorify HIS NAME!

 

submit first to the lordship of Jesus, the Christ.   Let God humble you.   Seek to know basic biblical principles.   Read your Bible and meditate upon it.    

IOW, seek ye first the kingdom of the Lord and all these things shall be added unto you.

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  From:  amym38     11/21/2004 7:32 pm  
To:  afreshface   (34 of 68)  
 
  919.34 in reply to 919.29  
 
Dare you judge God?

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  From:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   11/21/2004 8:56 pm  
To:  amym38    (35 of 68)  
 
  919.35 in reply to 919.31  
 
you don't know God at all if you think He is unjust.

-----------------------------

You don't know God at all if you think that there are some people who will never be given a chance to know him and you think he's okay with that.

I don't think God is unjust. I think your theology is inaccurate. And if God was described perfectly by YOUR theology, He would be unjust indeed.
-Kevin
 
  
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  From:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   11/21/2004 9:01 pm  
To:  amym38    (36 of 68)  
 
  919.36 in reply to 919.32  
 
Let God humble you and teach you who He REALLY is....not your wishful-thinking of a picture of Him.
_____________________________________________________________

First of all, it is not entered into the heart of man the things God has prepared for his children. Eye has not seen nor ear heard. Taste and see that the Lord is good....

It is fundamentally impossible for God to be less perfect than I imagine Him to be. By very definition, God is even MORE perfect than I could ever imagine Him to be. And since my picture of God is more merciful and more understanding than your picture of God, mine is closer.

As to the other things you have said, I am well-schooled in Biblical teaching. As a matter of fact, as I look back on this discussion it is your posts that seem to be lacking in both Scripture and logic. You are only repeating what you have heard, therefore, you are missing a lot, such as your own thoughts. And a loving portrayal of God.

I never claimed to know you. I described myself when I had beliefs similar to yours. If that offended you, then perhaps you need to ask yourself why. Maybe it struck a chord.
-Kevin
 
  
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  From:  amym38     11/21/2004 9:27 pm  
To:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   (37 of 68)  
 
  919.37 in reply to 919.35  
 
God leaves nothing to 'chance.'     You obviously have no clue as to Who He is.

 

you don't know what my 'theology' is.   :)

that said.......please take your false doctrine to your own forum. 

thanks.

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  From:  amym38     11/21/2004 9:28 pm  
To:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   (38 of 68)  
 
  919.38 in reply to 919.36  
 
You're full of yourself, Kevin.  Nothing more.

You had/have no interest in dialogue with anyone who challenges your preconceived notions of who God is.    

Please don't let the door hit you on the way out.

thanks.

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  From:  afreshface   11/22/2004 6:07 am  
To:  amym38    (39 of 68)  
 
  919.39 in reply to 919.38  
 
Amy,

Why are you always so defensive? Kevin is trying to have a genuine conversation with you about his beliefs vs. yours. Generally, in psychological disciplines, defensiveness that is out of proportion to the matter under discussion indicates either guilt, lying or unsureness of the grounds upon which one stands. 

I have not found Kevin to be particularly abrasive although he does stand strongly for what he believes, as do you. However, he is willing to continue to have dialog with you and would, I believe, welcome your posting some scriptural backup or your own personal philosophy about what you say about God. 

I myself would love to hear an answer to my question about loved ones suffering in hell other than 

"you don't know God at all if you think He is unjust.", 

"Do you think God has done everything He has done for your personal benefit and comfort? 

or maybe......

He has chosen to do what will glorify HIS NAME!

submit first to the lordship of Jesus, the Christ. Let God humble you. Seek to know basic biblical principles. Read your Bible and meditate upon it. 

IOW, seek ye first the kingdom of the Lord and all these things shall be added unto you."

"Dare you judge God?"

Firstly, I am not judging "God", I am questioning the validity of the correctness of the Judeo-Christian CONCEPT of God. Reading the Bible and meditating on it is what BROUGHT ME to my current viewpoint! I have six different Bibles and Strongs. Have you ever taken the Strong's and started "translating" biblical passages back to their original Greek or Hebrew meaning? VERY enlightening. Every time I read scriptural sources I ask God for wisdom and discernment to know truth from falsehood and I believe that over the years, I have received insight from my reading and meditations that many "mainstream" Christians may not have come to yet. 

And no, I don't believe God does everything he does for my personal comfort and benefit, I believe God does what he does for the spiritual growth and betterment of us ALL, and that includes me, and you......... 

However, sending someone to hell because he didn't confess Jesus as his personal savior, i.e. the Dali Lama or Ghandi, for instance, who are/were both VERY pious men full of love for all their fellow men, dedicated to bringing PEACE to this world can NOT be a true picture of God as it indicates INJUSTICE. The same goes for my loved friends and/or relatives who may not be Christian but are moral, upright, loving charitable people who live their lives by the "golden rule" better than a lot of Christian people I know.

You seem unable or unwilling to discuss this conflict in our views of God. You just reiterate over and over again, God is SO perfect, you can't possibly understand him; God doesn't do what he does for your benefit."

If this was fact, would it make it "o.k." for someone you loved deeply on earth to suffer eternally in hell while you were in heaven in comfort and splendor? How would you BE comfortable knowing they were tormented? If heaven is peopled with folks who just don't care about those that they loved suffering, I don't think I'd want to be there. 

I know what you're going to say, "Don't worry, I don't think you will be there!" You might be surprised at what you find when the time comes to meet God in the afterlife.

I think Kevin hit the nail on the head when he said, "I don't think God is unjust. I think your theology is inaccurate. And if God was described perfectly by YOUR theology, He would be unjust indeed."

You seem very AFRAID to contradict anything in the Bible. If your vision of God is correct, why are you so terrified of him? I am not afraid of God. God is so much grander and the universe full of so much more complexity and wonder than man can ever dare to dream of. Your vision of God makes him petty and small and humanlike - kinda like Ghenghis Khan or someone.
 
  
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   From:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   11/22/2004 7:04 am  
To:  amym38    (40 of 68)  
 
  919.40 in reply to 919.37  
 
No, I will not take my false doctrine anywhere, not until you show me how it is false. If you wish, you or the forum host can block me, ignore me, delete my messages, but I will not be intimidated simply because you do not wish to have a debate guided by alternate discussions of Scripture. I find that Jesus, at the age of 12, taught in the Jewish temple and it was a matter of him asking questions that they couldn't answer and then providing his own interpretations. That is the definition of spiritual discussion, it operates on logical principles and not one person's prejudice.

We may disagree, but if you can give me valid answers to my questions I will be more than happy to adjust my beliefs. So far you have not addressed any of my specific questions, such as, how does only being acquainted with the Bible prove to me that you know all you need to know about Native American religion. Have you considered my parable of the rooms?

Continually insisting I should read the Bible is actually kind of laughable to me right now, as I have seen nothing in your posts, not even a Scripture quotation, to make me believe you have ever read it with any type of understanding at all.
 
  
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From:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   11/22/2004 7:04 am  
To:  amym38    (41 of 68)  
 
  919.41 in reply to 919.37  
 
Speaking "the truth"... "in love"?????????
-Kevin 
  
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  From:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   11/22/2004 7:07 am  
To:  afreshface   (42 of 68)  
 
  919.42 in reply to 919.39  
 
I wonder sometimes, afreshface, if folks who have pushed this far off the brink of intolerance, away from Christ's message, are whom the Scripture was talking about in 2 Timothy 4:1-5, who have their consciences seared with a hot iron. Is this why logical debate is impossible? Its like they are not even real people, like they have some big mask on that continually transmits a false persona. There is a running discussion on this back in my forum. Its entitled "The Religious Right in the Bible", I think. 
  
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  From:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   11/22/2004 7:10 am  
To:  amym38    (43 of 68)  
 
  919.43 in reply to 919.38  
 
If you think I am lost, consider this:
the Bible instructs Christians to have an answer for every man. Jesus is the example for Christians, and I seem to remember that people were astonished at his doctrine and could find nothing to say against it. In fact, people didn't want him talking to them about spiritual matters because he knocked them for such a loop.

If we go by that criteria alone, it seems like I am in the role of Jesus and you in the role of the Pharisee. To reverse this, you should give me an answer that I cannot logically or spiritually argue against. 

Just a tip on how spiritual discussion occurred in the BIBLE.
-Kevin
 
  
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  From:  amym38     11/22/2004 1:22 pm  
To:  afreshface   (44 of 68)  
 
  919.44 in reply to 919.39  
 
Why are you always so defensive?

-------

not defensive at all.     that you perceive me so says more about you than I.

neither of you are interested in truth.  You have your minds made up.

go make your own forum.

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  From:  amym38     11/22/2004 1:23 pm  
To:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   (45 of 68)  
 
  919.45 in reply to 919.40  
 
I don't have to prove anything to you.

Go make your own forum to discuss to your heart's content....your rebellion and pride.

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  From:  amym38     11/22/2004 1:24 pm  
To:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   (46 of 68)  
 
  919.46 in reply to 919.41  
 
you don't know what love is.

 

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  From:  amym38     11/22/2004 1:25 pm  
To:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   (47 of 68)  
 
  919.47 in reply to 919.43  
 
the Bible instructs Christians to have an answer for every man.

-------

you continue to misquote the Holy Scriptures.

grow up.

when you have something to discuss, come back.  at the moment you are full of yourself.

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  From:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   11/22/2004 1:58 pm  
To:  amym38    (48 of 68)  
 
  919.48 in reply to 919.47  
 
"Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man." - Colossians 4:6 
(Whole Chapter: Colossians 4 In context: Colossians 4:5-7)

1 Peter 3:15
"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:"

Me: the Bible instructs Christians to have an answer for every man.

You: you continue to misquote the Holy Scriptures.

You: when you have something to discuss, come back. 

Me: How about the Holy Bible?

 
  
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  From:  amym38     11/22/2004 1:59 pm  
To:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   (49 of 68)  
 
  919.49 in reply to 919.48  
 
1 Peter 3:15
"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:"

taking snippets out of context is not a good thing, Kevin.

When you are ready......come back.  You are not ready.  You're still in your immaturity...you think God has to do what you want Him to do rather than understanding that God will do what God will do.

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  From:  afreshface   11/22/2004 4:57 pm  
To:  amym38    (50 of 68)  
 
  919.50 in reply to 919.44  
 
Amy, you also have your mind made up. I was sharing my views on why I believe as I do and asking you to share yours also, but you seem unwilling to share you views, only to quote scriptural references. You have not ever answered any of my questions about how your faith reconciles some of the issues I am uncomfortable with. I feel you might be frightened to even think about or investigate how you might feel about some of the questions. 
  
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  From:  afreshface   11/22/2004 5:08 pm  
To:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   (51 of 68)  
 
  919.51 in reply to 919.42  
 
Kevin,

I think it is fear, plain and simple, that causes many Christians to close their eyes to different views; to ignore the discomfiting questions.

I don't think Amy is THIS badly indoctrinated, but I have run into folks at other forums who actually believe that people like you and I are "tools of Satan", sent to lead them astray and seed their mind with doubts so that they can be pulled away from true belief and "won" for hell.

It is such a sad thought to me that many accept a cosmological view that postulates God and Satan "fighting" over our vulnerable souls like two petulant, spoiled little boys! There may be evil in creation but God is not a party to it and God does not "play games" for souls.

The fear that a tiny seed of doubt could blossom into a lack of faith or, God forbid, a LOSS of faith is so terrifying because of the threat of hell, that many feel they simply can not take the chance and thus, close their minds down tightly around the dogma and doctrine of their chosen "church".
 
  
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  From:  afreshface   11/22/2004 5:17 pm  
To:  amym38    (52 of 68)  
 
  919.52 in reply to 919.45  
 
Amy,

Kevin DOES have his own forum. A very nice little fledgling place called "Above Labels and Religion", where discussion are about GOD and His glorious nature and mercy, rather than about doctrine and dogma handed down through generations of fallible men. I think we've both ended up here because we enjoy theological debate and exploring other's viewpoints. 

Any time anything remotely controversial or against your very strictured beliefs come up you start to act decidely less than cordial. If you want to have a forum for the "in club", why not make a private forum? As a public forum I thought it was okay to come here as long as I don't act obnoxiously or swear, etc., which I have not and neither has Kevin, I believe.

I'm sorry you are unwilling or unable to have meaningful discussion with people like myself and Kevin. It seems very hard to find ANY fundamental Christians willing to open their minds enough to even contemplate some of the topics I enjoy discussing and debating and harder than pulling hen's teeth to get any to actually venture a personal opinion or feeling rather than spouting scripture (sometimes scripture that is wholly un-related to the topic at hand!)
 
  
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  From:  amym38     11/22/2004 5:24 pm  
To:  afreshface   (53 of 68)  
 
  919.53 in reply to 919.50  
 
I have no need to share my beliefs with someone who has swallowed false doctrine and equates it with the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I am not afraid, as you assume......I'm being wise.

buh-bye

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  From:  amym38     11/22/2004 5:25 pm  
To:  afreshface   (54 of 68)  
 
  919.54 in reply to 919.51  
 
It is not fear.

I don't appreciate being discussed on this forum either.

Go away now.

Well, I guess I do have the hammer.

cya.

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  From:  amym38     11/22/2004 5:27 pm  
To:  afreshface   (55 of 68)  
 
  919.55 in reply to 919.52  
 
I don't even read your posts past the first lines anymore.    That's all I need to read to understand that you have no interest in the truth and come here only to antagonize people.....meaning me, at this time.

Go to his forum now. 

How childish of both of you to come to this forum to ridicule and mock the beliefs of others.    

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  From:  Bob (hioo)   11/22/2004 5:34 pm  
To:  afreshface   (56 of 68)  
 
  919.56 in reply to 919.50  
 
It is quite a tribute to Amy, that she will allow herself be expressed only in terms of scripture....as much as is possible. The perfect situation would be scripture all the way. I too, would like nothing better than to quote scripture for all my questions AND answers. If done properly, there would be NO debate I couldn't win. But being human...mistakes creep in and soon I would make a fateful mistake. Of course I would be the full source of the mistakes on my side of the debate dais. 

To those who don't pay scripture the respect it deserves, this no doubt is most frustrating.

I KNOW that ole whatshisface found it frustrating when he tried his very best to "trap" Lord Jesus, and Lord Jesus came back at him...."It is written......". And Lord Jesus referred to the Old Testament when He said this. 

Most frustrating indeed, but also the most powerful debate material ever written by man for God and the bible is to be FREELY used in His name and for His sake. 

Intellectualizing a debate is good, when kept within a certain context. But man's intellect is suspect to say the least, and for the most part outrageous. If one keeps him/herself out of the debate as much as possible, the thing at least will last longer without starting to breakdown into its weakest components. 

Which again points to the wisdom of using scripture for ALL facets of a debate OR a discussion.

But alas, even this has man made weakness built in, for man is so convinced that HIS particular interpretation of scripture is what is needed and necessary. And boom....the debate again is reduced to its' weakest components. 

I think this post explains rather well why I don't get into "debates" on "chat boards" especially, for there normally is no "entrance" strategy or "exit" strategy. And the "weakest component" angle comes into play rather quickly. Within just a few posts, insults and character assassination comes into it and the "honorable debate" of a few posts back is now nothing more than a "shouting contest". 

So be it, I believe I have said quite enough. This hopefully will explain why I haven't entered into any of the posts generated. And a few reasons why I won't.


Born once; Die twice
Born twice; Die once 
  
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  From:  amym38     11/22/2004 6:05 pm  
To:  Bob (hioo)   (57 of 68)  
 
  919.57 in reply to 919.56  
 
Thank you, Bob.  What a marvelous post.

I have gagged those two people.   Would you like me to ungag them?   

I just thought they were both very rude and childish to come in here and expect to be able to ridicule and mock people to their heart's content.    

What say you, Bob?

amy

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Host:  Speaking The Truth In Love
Asst.: Basic Christian
 
  
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  From:  bubbleburste   11/22/2004 6:06 pm  
To:  Bob (hioo)   (58 of 68)  
 
  919.58 in reply to 919.56  
 
Hi, Freshy here...........

Thanks for posting your reasons for not wanting to enter into the discussion. I respect them and think your desire to use only scripture if possible is admirable, though it would be difficult.

<<sigh>> Amy has blocked me so I will give and say "uncle" and leave you folks in peace. I hope that your conversations flourish and by them you edify and encourage each other in Christ.

May God on high, who is more glorious than our small imaginings, bless you and keep you, touch your heart and fill your soul with Agape love for all men so that, in time, there may be a Kingdom of Heaven among us even as Jesus, the Christ, spoke of.

Happy trails :o)

P.S. Please tell Amy ciao from me. I'm not going to post to her. I found her blocking me so suddenly and without attempting to reconcile our differences somewhat rude!
 
  
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  From:  amym38     11/22/2004 6:07 pm  
To:  bubbleburste   (59 of 68)  
 
  919.59 in reply to 919.58  
 
I think your coming back in here to post is rather rude.     Did you not get the:  'I guess I have a hammer' line?     

You're rude and childish and need to grow up.

PS.  When and if you do manage to grow up and begin to hold the Holy Scriptures in high esteem, then you may e-mail me or David to get let back in.     

_____________________________

Host:  Speaking The Truth In Love
Asst.: Basic Christian



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Edited 11/22/2004 9:08 pm ET by amym38 
  
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   From:  Bob (hioo)   11/22/2004 6:14 pm  
To:  amym38    (60 of 68)  
 
  919.60 in reply to 919.57  
 
Amy,

That is 100% your call. I haven't stayed up on all the exchanges, but I read enough to know that you were very upset with much of what they said. 

Dear Sis, it is your board by David's permission it seems. You go girl, and run it like it was your own. And don't look back, Amy. 

Being a "host" and "moderator" is NO piece of cake, regardless of what people tell you. This decision has consequences, just like any decision you have to make. But always keep in mind, it is yours to make and yours to live with. 

Go girl, do your thing.

Ybic Bob


Born once; Die twice
Born twice; Die once 
  
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From:  King_Cripple   11/22/2004 7:21 pm  
To:  amym38    (61 of 68)  
 
  919.61 in reply to 919.49  
 
Hello everyone, its Kevin. This will be my final post. I wish you all the best. But I will not leave without speaking my peace.

Amy, you said, "taking snippets out of context is not a good thing, Kevin."

But who is taking snippets out of context? I informed you way back early in this discussion that when Jesus said "In my father's house are many mansions", the word in Greek could be found in any Lexicon to mean "way-stations." Your answer? "He is not someone or something else...or 'another way.'" This was enough for you to completely ignore a Biblical argument.

To Bob (and Amy): Amy has quoted no Scriptures in this entire discussion that I am aware of. My first post alone, however, has around 10 quotations, I believe. It is rather short-sighted to commend her for sticking to Scripture.

Amy: must be nice to be able to hit people over the head with a hammer when you can't stand being confronted by someone's else beliefs. You are welcome to post on my forum anytime. I'll never gag you, I believe in free speech.

Shaking off the dust from my feet,
Kevin

PS: 1 Peter 3:15 was not out of context. It is precisely a reason for your hope (or lack thereof) that I was seeking. You couldn't give it, I don't think you have hope.
 
  
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  From:  King_Cripple   11/22/2004 7:22 pm  
To:  afreshface   (62 of 68)  
 
  919.62 in reply to 919.52  
 
Hey buddy, Kevin here. Thank you for your kind words! Glad you are enjoying my forum.
-Kevin 
  
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  From:  amym38     11/22/2004 8:44 pm  
To:  Bob (hioo)   (63 of 68)  
 
  919.63 in reply to 919.60  
 
Yep. Thanks, Bob.

I just wanted to know if you wanted to keep discussing with them.   I don't.   Does no good to try, IMO.

God bless you, Bob.

amy

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Host:  Speaking The Truth In Love
Asst.: Basic Christian
 
  
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  From:  amym38     11/22/2004 8:46 pm  
To:  King_Cripple   (64 of 68)  
 
  919.64 in reply to 919.61  
 
so you're both childish enough to post with another name once you've been gagged.  figures.     it would be the polite thing to do to e-mail the moderator or asst.    i have no interest in your forum, but thanks just the same.

grow up.....the two of you.    when you're ready to discuss like adults then come back.   I mean that.

Amy

 

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Host:  Speaking The Truth In Love
Asst.: Basic Christian
 
  
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  From:  amym38     11/22/2004 8:48 pm  
To:  King_Cripple   (65 of 68)  
 
  919.65 in reply to 919.62  
 
Isn't it a bit idiotic to go to someone's else's forum to mock them, ridicule them, and to make a show of your foolishness the way you did?   If you don't believe what others believe---so be it.    That doesn't mean you get to bash them over the head with your doctrine.  

it's been real.

it's been fun.

but it ain't been real fun.

_____________________________

Host:  Speaking The Truth In Love
Asst.: Basic Christian
 
  
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  From:  Franklookingup (Franksharing)    12/4/2004 5:08 pm  
To:  King_Cripple   (66 of 68)  
 
  919.66 in reply to 919.61  
 
Hi Kevin
I read your first post and this last one. I hope all is will with you and your desire to know and follow Jesus, continues to grow in faith and understanding of Gods Wonderful words of life.

Here are some thoughts I would like to share with you:

In stooping to take upon Himself humanity, Christ revealed a character the opposite of the character of Satan. But He stepped still lower in the path of humiliation. "Being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."

Gal 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
NKJV

May you words and actions be a reflection of the glory of the light of Jesus. Amen

Joy in the Lord
Frank

 
  
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  From:  mercy777   12/4/2004 6:13 pm  
To:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   (67 of 68)  
 
  919.67 in reply to 919.1  
 
I believe all humans are born with a little spiritual light, we should know there is a Creator, a Maker. The Bible tells us there is no excuse because nature and the universe declare God is. And since God is, mankind is to take what light we have and seek more. If we ask, God will give us more light, if we seek Him, He will reveal more truth, if we knock, He will open to us more truth and we will find Him. I believe anyone, anywhere who truly wants to know God, with a heart to submit to God, will find His Way to salvation. Usually God will send a man of God to that one seeking to know. But if there is no man, I believe God can manifest Himself, reveal what is needful for a person to be saved. The person might not know Jesus by name, but will know, as the saints in the Old Test, that they have a redeemer, and it will be by faith, and God's grace they are saved.
God bless,
mercy
 
  
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   From:  inhiskingdom   12/8/2004 6:20 am  
To:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   (68 of 68)  
 
  919.68 in reply to 919.1  
 
Hi.

There is one way to know that the doctrine we follow is truth. 1st John 4 1-3: Paul wrote the letter to Christians in general concerned about the church following a wrong doctrine. We are to hear the spirits confess to see if they are of God, that are leading the teacher.

There is another way that Jesus will *confirm* what is taught is truth by Mark 16 17-20, by the supernatural signs that are given following a teaching. 

From prophecies it was given that the ones from the old covenant who had our Father to follow will be His to deal with, and the ones that follow Jesus, will be Jesus' to deal with - until they are both brought together in the new city. The ones that have followed Jesus to be born again but do not continue to follow Him will be given another chance by our Father, just as Thomas was given, by seeing, so will the two witnesses give the ones that did not believe Jesus in the truth of the new covenant a chance when they are not able to go with Him in the catching away, by seeing and talking to them of the ways of God.

In His Love
Norb
 
  
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